Head gasket, Oil Separator, or something else

[aftorwar]

I’d appreciate any thoughts from the collective brain trust before I wheel myself into the stealer.

The subject: 2002 X5, 3.0l 85k miles

The symptoms: after parking outside for the weekend (low temperatures in the teens F) I noticed a strong oily burning smell after driving for ~5 miles. Pulled over, turned off the vehicle & popped the hood. No apparent smoke but saw signs of oil leaking under pressure (around the PCV valve), no major oil leaks apparent under the vehicle, pulled the dipstick and heard sounds of pressure being released from around the dipstick (pressurized crankcase). Pulled oil fill cap & radiator cap, no apparent signs of coolant/oil mixing (foam, goop, etc) or abnormal fluid levels. Restarted vehicle & had lots of white smoke from the tailpipe (coolant vapor in the exhaust gas). Shut off immediately & had it towed home.

The questions:

1) My CPO expired on 1/9/08. Anyone had any success in having major issues covered shortly after CPO expiration? Any tips?

2) I immediately thought head gasket (augghhh!) but after looking through the forum have seen lots of posts regarding the oil separator issue. Not sure if this was prevalent on my year/engine combination or whether it is common in the temperatures it was parked in (Typically garaged but left out in the cold this past weekend). Any thoughts? Could it be that simple?


3) If it is the head gasket, what’s a “typical” repair bill through the dealer.


I’m not overly optimistic but this X5 has been a good runner & I believe I caught the problem immediately. The pressurized crankcase is weird & made me wonder whether the issue was PCV valve (now oil separator) related and not the catastrophe I think it is.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[JCL]

1) No, you are out of luck if you are past the date. Good news is that it likely isn't a catastrophe.

2) It is the oil separator, the clue is the pressurized crankcase that you heard when you pulled the dipstick. Usually takes a fairly cold soak, with a vehicle that has a buildup of condensation in the drain lines (so there is something to freeze). It appears to have frozen shut, which pressurized the crankcase. That is good news, because freezing in the open position can be more expensive.

3) Unlikely to be a head gasket.

I would have the valve replaced, and the lines. They may offer you the upgraded (heated) lines but you need to decide if that is necessary. It may be cheaper to just clean out the lines and valve after another four years.

Good luck. By the way, you listed a good diagnostic summary. Much easier to help than the more common "it stopped running what is my problem" posts.

Jeff

[X5 Meister]

I don't have enough experience with this issue to diagnose and say if it is or is not the oil separator so I'll defer to the expertise of JCL, however assuming that it is, and given that you have an M54 engine, the replacement will consist of a new crankcase vent valve, crankcase vent hoses and dipstick guide tube. The parts you'll need are:

Oil Separator Repair Kit 11 61 7 534 237
Dip Stick Guide Tube 11 43 7 563 831
Hose 11 15 7 532 628

For what it's worth, there IS a SIB on this issue for your car dated Oct 2007, so maybe given that fact your dealer can work with you on cutting the price down a bit. Keep in mind that there are several areas where the problem can take place: moisture accumulated in the engine oil separator, hose to oil dipstick guide tube and the orifice in the dipstick guide tube may freeze.

On a side note, this brings up 2 interesting questions:
1. There exist SIB's for this same problem for M54 engines (E39 5 Series, E46 3 Series, E53 X5, E60 5 Series, E83 X3 and E85 Z4) AND N62/N62TU engines (E53, E60, E63, E64, E65, E66, E70). The problem seems to have been fixed as late as 10/2006 on all the above models, but boy did it take BMW a while!
2. The SIB for the issue (come to think of it, most SIB's) have written in the section entitled "CORRECTION" the following:
"In the case of a customer complaint..."

Can someone tell me just what the hell this is supposed to actually mean? Exactly how many people walk into their local dealer and say... "Hey Joe, my crankcase ventilation system acted up a month ago and I need it repaired to current BMW spec!"
Moreover, even if someone came in with that line, the dealer (I've been told and experienced this a zillion times) has to REPLICATE the problem in order to fix it, so quite frankly the statement in the SIB is IMHO completely insulting. What a dealer should do is proactively offer the service based on the fact that the SIB exists and might affect my vehicle.
Case in point, if aftorwar's dealer was proactive in just that way, he wouldn't be having this problem now, AFTER his regular warranty has expired AND AFTER his CPO warranty has expired, which really really sucks.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by mgruber

...The SIB for the issue (come to think of it, most SIB's) have written in the section entitled "CORRECTION" the following:
"In the case of a customer complaint..."

Can someone tell me just what the hell this is supposed to actually mean? Exactly how many people walk into their local dealer and say... "Hey Joe, my crankcase ventilation system acted up a month ago and I need it repaired to current BMW spec!"
Moreover, even if someone came in with that line, the dealer (I've been told and experienced this a zillion times) has to REPLICATE the problem in order to fix it, so quite frankly the statement in the SIB is IMHO completely insulting. What a dealer should do is proactively offer the service based on the fact that the SIB exists and might affect my vehicle.
Case in point, if aftorwar's dealer was proactive in just that way, he wouldn't be having this problem now, AFTER his regular warranty has expired AND AFTER his CPO warranty has expired, which really really sucks.

Yes, it means that the BMW policy in this case is to repair after failure, not before failure. This is not a BMW-specific issue, it is common with all manufacturers.

An example of when a before failure policy is applied is if it is a safety issue (ie, mandated by law) or if the failure is likely to happen and the cost to the manufacturer is less to replace all of the affected parts so as to avoid the higher cost of post-failure repairs for the percentage that do fail.

An example of when an after-failure policy is applied is if the likelihood of a failure happening is low, and when the few that fail under warranty can be fixed (even if they have resulting catastrophic engine failures) for less money than if all the parts that never would fail were to be replaced.

All of this can be weighted and shifted by the 'cost' to the manufacturer of unhappy customers, but the math is still the same: if the failure is not likely to happen then the manufacturer will apply a post-failure policy unless required by law to do differently, after evaluating the cost of unhappy customers. BMW sales statistics suggest that this issue hasn't been getting in the way of vehicle sales.

The problem has been around for 10 years or so. BMW has had lots of time for the accountants to add up the cost of the small number that have frozen. They moved to heated lines on new production. However, replacing the old style valve would, for the vast majority of owners, have absolutely no benefit. Hence, the post-failure policy.

Why do they need to replicate the problem? We have seen that on this board recently. If an engine has a hesitation, it is immediately assumed that it is the separator, whether it is or not. Confirming that the separator is in fact the problem is very logical.

To make it a bit less emotional, think about lightbulbs in your home. Some are probably going to burn out this year. You could replace them all every January, and then you wouldn't be inconvenienced. But you likely don't, you wait until they fail because most of them aren't going to fail.

[X5 Meister]

Very well written reply and I agree with you. (Frankly I'd be very interested in finding out just how many 4.8is owners got a brand new engine as a result of the direct recall on their cars, but my guess is that very few, since BMW wouldn't have ever mentioned any issues until the car crapped itself out) Also keep in mind that the bean counters and their number crunching don't always produce the happiest results as BMW found out not too long ago from the class action lawsuit it lost brought on by E60 owners.

Anyway, your last example of the light bulbs is pretty far reaching since a light bulb failure doesn't have the potential of wiping out the engine engine and thus rendering the car undriveable to the owner. I'm sure you've read plenty of SIB's as have I and very few of them list "catastrophic engine failure" as a possibility if the fault should occur. In my book such a possibility should inevitably result in a preventative fix. Heck at least for people in the geographic regions where it is most likely to happen!

Originally Posted by JCL

Yes, it means that the BMW policy in this case is to repair after failure, not before failure. This is not a BMW-specific issue, it is common with all manufacturers.

An example of when a before failure policy is applied is if it is a safety issue (ie, mandated by law) or if the failure is likely to happen and the cost to the manufacturer is less to replace all of the affected parts so as to avoid the higher cost of post-failure repairs for the percentage that do fail.

An example of when an after-failure policy is applied is if the likelihood of a failure happening is low, and when the few that fail under warranty can be fixed (even if they have resulting catastrophic engine failures) for less money than if all the parts that never would fail were to be replaced.

All of this can be weighted and shifted by the 'cost' to the manufacturer of unhappy customers, but the math is still the same: if the failure is not likely to happen then the manufacturer will apply a post-failure policy unless required by law to do differently, after evaluating the cost of unhappy customers. BMW sales statistics suggest that this issue hasn't been getting in the way of vehicle sales.

The problem has been around for 10 years or so. BMW has had lots of time for the accountants to add up the cost of the small number that have frozen. They moved to heated lines on new production. However, replacing the old style valve would, for the vast majority of owners, have absolutely no benefit. Hence, the post-failure policy.

Why do they need to replicate the problem? We have seen that on this board recently. If an engine has a hesitation, it is immediately assumed that it is the separator, whether it is or not. Confirming that the separator is in fact the problem is very logical.

To make it a bit less emotional, think about lightbulbs in your home. Some are probably going to burn out this year. You could replace them all every January, and then you wouldn't be inconvenienced. But you likely don't, you wait until they fail because most of them aren't going to fail.

[aftorwar]

Originally Posted by JCL

1) No, you are out of luck if you are past the date. Good news is that it likely isn't a catastrophe.

2) It is the oil separator, the clue is the pressurized crankcase that you heard when you pulled the dipstick. Usually takes a fairly cold soak, with a vehicle that has a buildup of condensation in the drain lines (so there is something to freeze). It appears to have frozen shut, which pressurized the crankcase. That is good news, because freezing in the open position can be more expensive.

3) Unlikely to be a head gasket.

I would have the valve replaced, and the lines. They may offer you the upgraded (heated) lines but you need to decide if that is necessary. It may be cheaper to just clean out the lines and valve after another four years.

Good luck. By the way, you listed a good diagnostic summary. Much easier to help than the more common "it stopped running what is my problem" posts.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff! a couple follow-up questions:

If its the oil separator, once thawed will the white smoke go away? If so, after how long (parked in the garage overnight, started this morning, still lots of smoke after 2 minute idle. shut engine off in the event it's not the oil separator).

Do you recommend I change the valve cover gasket too? If pressurized, I'm trying to think of what might have failed that I ought to replace while DIYing the oil separator.

Any other thoughts on inspections that would indicate blown head gasket?

[mrbmwx5]

alots of white smoke from tailpipe is oil separator fail.
smoke under the hood is blown valve cover gasket
you should change the valve cover gasket too while you at it.
(if it blown head gasket your car be in the overheat mode.)

[JCL]

Originally Posted by aftorwar

Thanks Jeff! a couple follow-up questions:

If its the oil separator, once thawed will the white smoke go away? If so, after how long (parked in the garage overnight, started this morning, still lots of smoke after 2 minute idle. shut engine off in the event it's not the oil separator).

Do you recommend I change the valve cover gasket too? If pressurized, I'm trying to think of what might have failed that I ought to replace while DIYing the oil separator.

Any other thoughts on inspections that would indicate blown head gasket?

White smoke is moisture in the combustion chamber or exhaust. How long it lasts after starting depends on how much moisture is in there. It could take really warming it up.

Valve cover gasket only needs replacing if it is leaking. It is the usual failure point with a pressurized crankcase. If it isn't leaking, leave it alone, unless you want to do it for a preventative step while you are in there.

A head gasket can fail between several different places; the combustion chamber, an oil gallery, a coolant jacket, or to the outside. If it fails between the combustion chamber and a coolant jacket (which is what you suspect, since that is the path that puts coolant in the combustion chamber) then you should see a low coolant level, and with the engine running, bubbles will often show up in the header tank.

I would assume it is the separator, replace that and the hoses, and then go from there.

[lo_jack]

I agree with Jeff across the board. You would most likely have coolant in your oil or vice versa on a head gasket, and it would probably be overheating pretty badly as well. If it were leaking coolant into the chamber, your power would be crap and the ECU would be screwing with the fueling. How's your mileage?

Spend the $150~ for parts and swap the seperator out yourself. Do all the related lines and the distribution piece. If your valve cover gasket is leaking, replace that too, but not unless you are going to do your seperator. It will just blow again.

[aftorwar]

I've got the parts & I'm going do do the job on Saturday. Anyone have or seen a good procedure posted anywhere? Sounds like the job is a pain but hey, I'm cheap, I've got tools and I like to get my hands dirty so I'm going in.