CRANKCASE VENTILATION SYSTEM / OIL SEPARATOR NOW COVERED UNDER CPO !!!

[markrain]

It is a little late for the advice about cleaning out the condensate -- $1900 too late. If the dealership had mentioned that this might be an issue I would have gladly done it.

btw, I have no clue where this valve is at nor do I know how to clean out the condensate. Is this posted somewhere?

The SA at the dealership also mentioned that driving habits don't seem to have an impact - the SA felt that variable weather temps in cold climates was the contributing factor to what seems to be a defective valve system. They suggested Sea Foam.

I liked the vehicle until now but I can't trust driving it in Minnesota. For me, this is a safety issue. I am almost resigned to fixing it and then selling it ... and go back to the quirky but honest Saabs I have driven for many years.

[JCL]

It is possible for the crankcase ventilation valve (CCV) to fail by itself, but the usual failure mode is that it gets blocked.

Inside the engine there is condensation, from the heating/cooling cycles of running it and then shutting it off. Entirely normal. That condensation can build up, combine with the oil, and form a milky coloured paste (condensate). If the engine gets fully up to temperature, ie hot enough (as it is designed to), for long enough (which doesn't happen with a lot of short trips) then the condensation burns off and there is no issue. That is how most engines are. However, if there are lots of short trips, without warming the engine completely, then the condensate builds up over time, and the milky coloured paste, which is often visible under the oil filler cap, collects in the crankcase breather system. If there is a lot of it, and it gets very cold out, then it can freeze and block the crankcase vent. If the vent freezes shut, you get a pressurized crankcase, and usually a valve cover gasket leak. If it freezes open, manifold vacuum can draw in oil from the sump, causing a hydraulic lock. That isn't common, it is more common to have an oil leak and the oil to basically be dumped all over the engine.

The new modified CCV was first insulated (to help prevent it freezing) and in some models, heated. Those modifications were to address the symptoms, not the cause. The real solution is to drive the car in such a way that it gets a good run every now and then. If that isn't possible, and the condensate is visible under the oil filler cap, then the CCV can be cleaned out. Eventually, the hoses to the CCV go soft from the oil and they need replacing. If the CCV is damaged, it needs replacing. However, simply cleaning it out isn't as expensive as replacing it all, and if I had to do a lot of short trips, and lived in a place where it got cold enough to freeze the condensate, I would clean it out annually.

I would not use Sea Foam.

Variable weather conditions contribute because they can result in more condensation. All that is moot if the car is driven hard enough, however.

I share your enthusiasm for SAABs, I drove a 99 and used a family member's 900 many years ago.

[xriderob]

Well finally had some issues even after a few clean out's of the CCV. Had the engine misfire on me twice and cause a flashing check engine light. Took it in to the shop and sure enough my engine vaccum was what they say '35 millibar' approx 10 millibar higher than what it should be. And they offered the update and I agreed, $1400 later...sadly. Really wish this would have shown up when my CPO warrenty was present. Sadly it was up Oct 31 of 2010. Tried for my safety one warrenty but they stated it is part of the emissions and exhaust system so it is not covered. Also tried the 8 year emissions warrenty for BMW but that covers ECM, cat's and a few other things NOT ccv or pcv. Also the pcv or ccv is covered for two years under new car warrenty not 4. Just thought I would share my update. 2005 4.4i with 56,000km

[markrain]

But, the car is driven 12 miles each way on the highway to work and back 3 to 5 days per week. That should be sufficient to burn off the condensate. The exception was that over the holidays it was not driven as much because I took time off from work.

Is there a reason you would not use Sea Foam? It was the only suggestion made by the Service Advisor that might be preventative.

Is there a post about how to locate and clean out the valve?

The only positive item the SA brought up was that, if there were issues with the exhaust/emissions, that it would be covered under the 8 years/80K mile warranty. After all, there was oil dripping out of the tailpipe --that can't be good for those systems... He said that to get rid of the oil smell, they would idle the car for 3 or 4 hours.

Rather than pay the dealership $1900 ($1500 in labor) I may look for an indie mechanic. Does anyone know of someone in the Minneapoilis, MN area? Thanks again.

[JCL]

12 miles isn't enough to burn off the condensate IMO. The engine has to get fully up to temperature, and stay there for awhile. I suspect you are getting it warm, but not giving it time at that temperature to get rid of the condensation.

It doesn't happen on one trip or over a week, it happens over an extended period.

SeaFoam engine treatment is 70 or 80 years old. It is a very low tech product, and it can be harsh on the internals of your engine. Both the oil additive, and the fuel additive, are specifically recommended against by BMW.

[fiat84]

Is it possible to replicate engine "load" to heat a -25C Canadian winter cold engine faster to full operating temperature by just revving the engine to around 1300-1500RPM while stationary until out of blue zone before driving?

Would it help after short drives to rev the engine to say 2500-3000RPM for a few minutes to burn off any moisture?

Most of our common suburb drives are "short" local trips and after reading various posts am trying to avoid another winter breakdown.

A few years ago had my M54 engine hydrolock CCV freeze up about three months after buying a two year lease return. Edmonton BMW Dealer Tech guy told me that it is less common in cars driven hard and he replaced the frozen CCV/hoses with the non insulated versions=$700.00. Dealer Tech did mention they had a special BMW machine to clean out the cylinders only used to speed up this common hydrolock repair even though it was not a warranty covered repair. He also used Mobil 1 oil in his BMW. Was at a dealer last month and one of the used sales guy's and his X5 hydrolocked so he added the actual "heated" hose version for $400 employee cost. No one at that dealer will say much about prevention(cleaning out or replacing CCV) and they do not publicly advise avoiding short trips.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by fiat84

Is it possible to replicate engine "load" to heat a -25C Canadian winter cold engine faster to full operating temperature by just revving the engine to around 1300-1500RPM while stationary until out of blue zone before driving?

Would it help after short drives to rev the engine to say 2500-3000RPM for a few minutes to burn off any moisture?

Most of our common suburb drives are "short" local trips and after reading various posts am trying to avoid another winter breakdown.

A few years ago had my M54 engine hydrolock CCV freeze up about three months after buying a two year lease return. Edmonton BMW Dealer Tech guy told me that it is less common in cars driven hard and he replaced the frozen CCV/hoses with the non insulated versions=$700.00. Dealer Tech did mention they had a special BMW machine to clean out the cylinders only used to speed up this common hydrolock repair even though it was not a warranty covered repair. He also used Mobil 1 oil in his BMW. Was at a dealer last month and one of the used sales guy's and his X5 hydrolocked so he added the actual "heated" hose version for $400 employee cost. No one at that dealer will say much about prevention(cleaning out or replacing CCV) and they do not publicly advise avoiding short trips.

Revving the engine without load is not a good idea. It is the load that helps it warm up, not the rpm. The engine has to be working against a load. Revving a cold engine will just cause more wear IMO.

If your problem was a couple of years ago, and you want to avoid a future problem, I would ask them to inspect the CCV. If it is clean, then you know that your typical driving is not much of a problem. Realize that it could have taken two years of the previous owner's typical use to build up enough condensate to allow it to freeze up. On the other hand, if it is truly plugged up after two years, then cleaning it out would be advisable.

If they won't tell you not to drive on short trips, it would be because a lot of people do so, and consider that to be normal usage. They don't want the customer push-back IMO.

If you want to try and get some heat into the engine faster, and you are parking it outside at -25C, then you could always put those stick-on silicone heating pads on the oil pan and plug it in overnight. That won't prevent the condensation, but it will help the engine to warm up more quickly, and may thus help reduce condensation build-up over time by giving the engine more time to boil off the condensation.

[fiat84]

FYI those (Canadian Polar Pad, Wolverine) silicone oil pan heaters work as per the truck post results below. 125 watt heated his V8's oil(8L?) from -4F(-20C) to +54F(+12C) overnight was proof enough for me to install the same 125 watt model(M54 V6). Went out today -25C and starts up quiet with no cold engine noises. EDIT: starting from frozen in about 2 hours the engine immediately starts on the first crank and on low idle but with cold belt squealing compared to no noises when plugged in overnight.

Called the Canadian Polar Pad(@Canadian Tire) helpdesk before my install and he said to keep the engine warm for a few hours for the outside high heat silicone sealant to set up properly. I stored it in my neighbors heated attached garage overnight to be safe. The Wolverine site has more info(available at Gregg Distrubuters here in Canada) Wolverine Engine Heaters and states "...REDUCES water and acid accumulation in the oil supply." Did a practice fit install first including re-attaching the bottom airflow cover so there were no surprises.

Oil pan heater results (winter is coming) - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
Oil pan heater results (winter is coming)
So I installed a 125watt oil pan heater last week. I got to test it yesterday since it was -4 (F) outside. It kept the oil temperature at 54 (F) overnight ! I was really impressed. Well worth the 10 minute install. The brand I used comes with good install instructions and it comes with the sticky pad already on it. Here are the details of the unit i used:
Model CP154
Size: 2.25 in x 4 in x .075 in
125 watts nominal, 120V

Application Range:
Engine w / 1.5 - 4.5 litres - Oil
Tank w / 4 - 25 litres - Hydraulics
Even though my truck has 3 gallons of oil it kept the engine oil at a decent temperature. The thing I really like about it is that it is very small and easy install.

[xriderob]

Any tips on install. Oil pan doesn't look to easy for something to place on it. Any help would be appreciated. Even after ccv update I'm having big issues with my x. Oil cap has sludge as well. Again.

[DimAciD]

Originally Posted by fiat84

FYI those (Canadian Polar Pad, Wolverine) silicone oil pan heaters work as per the truck post results below. 125 watt heated his V8's oil(8L?) from -4F(-20C) to +54F(+12C) overnight was proof enough for me to install the same 125 watt model. Went out today -25C and starts up quiet with no cold engine noises.

Oil pan heater results (winter is coming) - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
Oil pan heater results (winter is coming)
So I installed a 125watt oil pan heater last week. I got to test it yesterday since it was -4 (F) outside. It kept the oil temperature at 54 (F) overnight ! I was really impressed. Well worth the 10 minute install. The brand I used comes with good install instructions and it comes with the sticky pad already on it. Here are the details of the unit i used:
Model CP154
Size: 2.25 in x 4 in x .075 in
125 watts nominal, 120V

Application Range:
Engine w / 1.5 - 4.5 litres - Oil
Tank w / 4 - 25 litres - Hydraulics
Even though my truck has 3 gallons of oil it kept the engine oil at a decent temperature. The thing I really like about it is that it is very small and easy install.

How did you attach it to the oil pan?
I was told the surface got to be flush or that thing will pop off once it warms up...
4.4i got 8 liters of oil
would it make sence to put two of the 125w or one 250?