DSP is Garbage, anyone "delete" it and amp up with an afermarket?

[FAT_X5]

ok,
I know I have posted here about this before. My 01 Lear DSP amp has gone out and I will not spend $1300 to replace it, or even $200 to ebay replace it.
I'd rather look into wiring it out and or replacing it with an aftermarket amp I can use on future projects.

The bottom line is that DSP is crap and there is more than enough evidence that the system will run without the amp if done propertly. See both tidbits below. (I included the actual links)


This is the info I have found so far, none of it is mine



DSP sound system upgrade update. (archive)
DSP sound system upgrade update. (archive) [ Follow Ups ] [ 5-series (E39) Message Board ] [ Msg. Board FAQ ]Posted by Bob Hazelwood on December 20, 1999 at 19:06:32:

Maybe I've been watching Blues Clues with my 3-1/2 year old daughter too much, but once I finally got to see one of these new fangled DSP systems in person, a coupla (sic) things led to the fact that the system is
a lot simpler than we all thought. Ya gotta just love German logic!
As it turns out, the DSP "radio" is exactly the same radio that is in the non DSP system! So, all the same
functions and connections are present to do the same amp and speaker upgrades as the DSP cars. This is good news for those of you who are looking to upgrade.
Here is how it works:
1. The present DSP system has the controls up front, which appears to be irrelevant to the discusson (at
least in the car I saw with Nav.)
2. The front conrols operate a separate "radio" chassis, the Nav, the CD player etc. through the
communication bus. The radio itself is a small box about 2 x 7 x 5 with the same connector that BMW uses
for it's in dash radios in one corner. Present on this connector are the left and right audio signals from the
radio. These are only two channels, containing only radio and cassette signals, and they are unaffected by
any of the volume, balance, or tone controls. They happen to be in the same pin locations as the Left front and right front connections on the in-dash BMW radios from E36 and E34 models. (Clue #1) Below this
connector are two smaller rectangular connectors which will soon play a part in the solution.
3.The CD changer has a power and digital bus connection. There is a digital connection from the CD
changer to the box which contains the DSP plus amplifier. There is a rectangular connection which is
unused, and matches the unused connector on the radio. (Clue #2)
4.Finally, investigation of the radio showed that the PCB was fully stuffed, (no missing parts) and the PCB
around the large connector showed designations for LR and RR signals. (Clue #3)
As in Blue's Clues, we now know pretty much all the important facts.
It became apparent that the only difference between the DSP electronic hardware was the addition of the
DSP "box" itself, and a different wiring harness! And, oh yeah, that laughable "subwoofer".
Then the final test: disconnect the DSP box, fire up the system and, Voila! The DSP selection dissappears
from the menu, and Bass Treble Balance and Fader appear. The darn thing is Plug and Play! When you
don't have the DSP on the bus, the radio output starts to work like the standard system, and its basic
functions return to the analog outputs. The two things which remain are to get the signal from the CD
changer to the radio, and to get to the rear channel connections of the radio output. The first involves buying the short wiring harness used for this purpose in the non-DSP systems. This is a standard BMW part. The second involves buying four of the connector sockets which mate with the radio connectors and inserting them into the open holes of the plastic plug which goes to the radio. They go into the same positions used for rear speakers on he conventional radio. Then just take the DSP box and post it on E-bay, or save it for the
end of the lease. Unfortunately, I do not know part numbers for the BMW cable and the connectors, but you sould be able to get them from your BMW parts dept. Since Rich was nice enough to let me share the broad knowledge, I respect his desire to keep the finer details of these findings from his immediate market area competition by not posting pin locations and part numbers. However, there should be enough information in this post so that those of you who are knowledgeable enough that you should be attempting to do this yourself in the first place will be able to take it from here. Or, if you're in New England, drop your car off at Rich's Car Tunes and have them do the job. If you're not in the Boston area, give Rich a call and ask him to put a kit together with the parts you need and instructions. Of course, your local installer should be able to figure it out from this post as well. If they can't, DON'T LEAVE YOUR CAR WITH THEM!
Disclaimer: I have no connection to Rich's other than to acknowledge that since they were a key player in
figuring this mystery out they deserve some gratitude, or is that "gratuity" ;-). Best regards,
Bob


Pictures for Amplifier Installation - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)

Here's what I have found on the M5 board: The summary says it all - add cables and DSP turns into a analog system. DSP is plug and play. Installer.com, a company that sells the METRA wiring harnesses mentioned below disagrees completly with this write up. I called them to order the harness and they said that it is impossible because the DSP is the cross overs for the rear speakers and you CAN'T buy cross overs anymore - you'd have to make them. I'm almost sure that DOC (the BMW guru) at Installer.com is wrong on both counts.Summary:
Remove the DSP amp, add a couple of cables, and your formerly DSP stereo will revert to 5V balanced outputs on all 4 channels which can then be amplified. No Cleansweep needed.
Details:
The project was to upgrade an M5 DSP system (not M-Audio) w/ new interior separates, main amp, sub amp, and subwoofers. Since upgrading the interior speakers has been documented nicely already, this will cover strictly the addition of the amplifiers and the conversion from DSP to non-DSP.

see MTX504 on Stock Bracket.jpg

As mentioned, I do not have a M-Audio, but do have DSP. I have the 6 disc changer, but no DICE, Ipod, phone, etc. None of that should make a darn bit of difference, however.

It has been documented in previous posts that you can get an analog output from the radio unit by disconnecting your DSP amplifier from the system but with 2 issues: no rear channel outputs and loss of the CD changer input (see DSP Explained below).

My CD Changer was already connected to my radio via the analog connection, so that solved the first part of my problem - getting audio data from the CD to the radio. Determine which setup you have by looking at the CD changer – if you have a round connector and a 4 wire square connecter you have a digital connection. If you have a 4 wire square plug and a 3 wire rectangular plug you have an analog connection. I believe the part number for the analog cd->radio cable is 65-12-8-364-756. The other way to tell is to look at your radio harness: the white plug in the lower right of the picture with a black, yellow, and brown wire is from the CD Changer.

see Stock Harness - Zoom.jpg

The other issue is how to get 4 channels of analog output from a radio that only provides 2 channels of digital. As mentioned, the radio automatically switches from digital to analog output when you remove the DSP amplifier and disconnect power to the head unit temporarily. Let me repeat that to be clear – removing the DSP amplifier will still leave a constant volume signal, you also need to remove power from the head unit temporarily (I disconnected the battery).

Unfortunately, the stock wiring harness only contains wires for the front channels since the DSP amplifier splits it into 4 channels itself (see previous photo, bottom left corner). Lucky for us, while DSP was standard on M5's in the US, it was not standard on all BMWs and the radio is common. Metra, an aftermarket wiring harness company, makes a replacement harness for the radio that contains 4 channels of output. And presto, just by ordering a Metra 71-9003 wiring harness ($10 inc. s/h on eBay). BTW – the radio changed in 2002. If you have a 2001 or lower you need 70-8591 inc rca plugs or 70-8590 with just wires.

The new harness wires aren't very long (about 6 inches) but they are well labelled. I took a 3 foot twisted pair RCA cable, cut it in half, and soldered the leads to the Metra harness to create a BMW stock to RCA output harness.

see Radio to RCA.jpg

The BMW and Metra radio harnesses are actually 4 small harnesses in 1 harness carrier. Pry the tabs on the side of the speaker wire harness gently and it will slide right out of the larger Metra carrier (do this one first in case you break the carrier!). Remove the old speaker wire harness from your stock carrier, tuck the old wires out of the way and insert the new harness!

see Stock Harness w RCA.jpg

So now I have a stock radio with analog outputs. What I didn't realize was that the outputs are not low level (typically in the 100mV-1V range) but rather are balanced outputs with a peak of 5V riding on a 0.8V baseline (per el_duderino and TJJ at X5Board: http://www.xoutpost.com/bsws-mobile-e...ght=DSP+output). Luckily Scott at MTX was very helpful -- ALL of their amps can accept a balanced input via RCA cables.

I don’t like modifying stock wiring harnesses, so I also tried to find the mating halves of the factory wiring harnesses that attach to the amplifier. They are all Amp/Tyco, but unfortunately all but one are out of production and are not available. Instead I chose to use 6 pin / 4 pin power connectors (rated at 8A each) from Radio Shack. They will allow me to remove the equipment from the vehicle without having to unscrew any wires.

see Speaker Wires 001.jpg

Next step was to modify the brackets. As mentioned I wanted to mount the amplifier in the stock location. Finding the right size amp was ok, but getting one with mounting holes that match wasn't going to happen so I took a thin strip of sheet metal and bent it to make an extension.

see Amp Bracket 003.jpg

In addition, I needed to mount the passive crossovers so I took some additional sheetmetal, bent a couple of mounting tabs onto it and then mounted it to the bracket between the amplifier and the cd changer.

see Crossover Bracket 001.jpg



Now we have the whole story sorted out:

• Disconnect your battery
• Remove the stock DSP amplifier
• Add analog CD -> Radio harness if not present already
• Modify the radio wire harness using the Metra adapter and connect new amplifiers
• Reconnect battery and enjoy!!!

Hope this helps everyone and sorry to those who were misled by stereo shops who didn’t know better!

Doug

Additional Info:

Thanks to the following people / boards that made this possible:
Gustav and M5Board.Com, X5Board.Com & BSW: For hosting and sponsoring so much information it took me 2 months to read and digest it all!
Bob Hazelwood: For providing 95% of the information including full wiring harness details and suggesting this was even possible!
BMWMPWR: For confirming the CD Changer to Radio part number
el_duderino & TJJ (from X5Board): For the X5 analog output information
Dave_GT: For pictures of his non-DSP Eu stereo for comparison
Scott Abel @ MTX: For advice on amplifiers, subwoofers, speakers

DSP Explained :
The screen in the front of the car is simply a dumb terminal that passes commands to the 4 units in the back: radio receiver, navigation, cd changer, and amplifier. In a DSP vehicle, the nav unit is connected to the radio (analog), the radio to the DSP amp (digital), and the CD to either the DSP amp (digital) or the radio (analog). The output from the radio unit is 2 channel (front) only and does not vary with volume. All modifications to the sound (volume, fader, treble, bass, DSP equalizer, etc) are controller by the amplifier which then provides 10-12 channels of amplification (depending on M-Audio or not).

Installing the equipment you have is actually pretty simple. Your dealer is probably getting confused by the two-chassis radio in the front. The thing in the dash is just a display/control panel. The radio is a "black box" mounted out of sight. That's where the tuner and preamp circuitry is located. The amplifier is in the trunk behind the CD changer.
First, In an E39, E38, and E46, don't even think about replacing the head unit! Unless you have just won Powerball, it's not worth it. It will be an improvement, but it will be a small one and not worth the time and effort. The actual radio/cd electronics in the factory system are suprisingly good. It's just that you can't tell that through the factory amp and speakers. Have your dealer ignore everything electronic forward of the back seat, and simply pull out the factory amp behind the CD player. Everything they will need to connect the new system will be right there.
You have four channels of signal from the radio, 6 pairs of speaker wires from the front system (2 woofers, 2 midranges, 2 tweeters), 4 pairs of wires from the rear (2 woofers, 2 tweeters), remote turn-on wire (white), power, and ground. The only wire that should not be used is the power wire, because it is too small for the new amp you have. (The ground is kind of small too, but it is a short run so the resistance is much less than on the power wire. It won't hurt to run a new one, but it's not absolutely necessary.) Fortunately, running a new power wire is really easy with the battery in the trunk.
Connecting the P840 then becomes a simple matter of removing the proprietary BMW plugs from the harness, and replacing them with appropriate connectors to mate with the P840. In order to facilitate easy replacement of the BMW system in my own car (E34), I cut the BMW harness back 6" from the factory connecors. Then, I purchased Molex "Mini-Fit Jr." series connectors from Digi Key Electronics (http://www.digikey.com). I installed these connectors on the BMW harness, and their mates on the part I cut off. This way I can just plug it back together when I'm ready to put the car to pasture. Then I made another set of cables with the Molex connectors on one end and connectors on the other end to mate with the amps/crossovers. I used a 12-pin connector for the front speaker wires, an 8-pin for the rear speakers, and a 10-pin connector for the signal from the radio, ground, and remote turn-on. You could probably put these all on one connector, but I like to separate them by function since I do a lot of experimenting.
The four radio signal leads should ultimately terminate in RCA plugs and connect directly to the P840 inputs. The speaker leads will connect to the outputs of the respective a/d/s/ crossovers, and the only "new" wiring will be from the P840 speaker outputs to the inputs of the a/d/s/ crossovers. This will be standard speaker wire. I wish I could help you out with the color code, but I've been unable to get my hands on E39 documentation so far.
The speaker installation is pretty easy for any installer worth paying, There will be a little "futzing" to get everything sealed and solid, but no more than any other car, so this should not throw anybody for a loop.
Do NOT let your installer run new wires up front for the signal from the radio. You WILL get alternator noise! There is NOTHING better than twisted pair wiring for running low-level signal in a noisy environment, and that's what BMW already uses! Don't fall for the marketing hype of expensive audio cables. This is not home audio, the priorities are different. (Guess I better put my flame suit on now) Speaking of flames, pay for good wire, fuse block, and connectors for the power wiring though. It's a safety issue.
Subwoofers can take a lot of forms, depending on what you are after. In the DSP system, BMW cuts a couple of 3" holes in the rear deck for a bandpass enclosure. You can also cut through the center of the rear seat area (where the ski-bag option goes), for a 10" or 12" driver. This could be in an enclosure or infinite baffle. You can also get pretty good results without cutting anything if the subwoofer is powerful enough, but it's better to cut. The Ski bag area is not really structurally significant, early 5's had a punch-out panel there. It's basically left in place for noise reduction. (I wouldn't go overboard with the cutting though!)
Best regards,
Bob Hazelwood
VP Product Management, a/d/s/
'93 525i 5-sp. Sharked, BL/ss'd, H&R + Bilsteins
BMW CCA (Boston)
http://www.adst.com
: I have a 98 528i Sport Package with non premium sound system. And I was planning to upgrade my stock audio system. I went to couple of audio dealers around my town, however, I didn't get any clear answer from any of them. Because new 5 series has longer face unit, it is difficult to install with din size face unit. And also, if I stick with factory face unit, it is also difficult to upgrade amp and subs. Because, bmw audio uses factory amp as a tuner. I already bought A/D/S/ 335is 336is speakers and P840 amp. I also wanted to get subs and new face unit for my car. I will be appreciated if anyone tell me how to upgrade my lousy stock audio system.

[fmk]

holy long post Batman!

[dragoncoach]

I think you should condense it down a little. Very few people are going to read an article that long.

[mrbmwx5]

^^ I'm not reading it... LOL

[X5 Meister]

Uhhh. is there a cliff's notes version. No way in hell I'm gonna spend a month reading that.

[Yii]

its true i scrolled and lost interest lol

[papasmurf]

Now that is some worthwhile info. If I ever get around to doing a system that just saved me a lot of money, because now I won't need a summing module or CleanSweep.

[X5 Meister]

Just do what I did and put a relatively modest stereo in your X5, and then shut up and be done with it. I did mine in just over 2 hours and it wasn't too bad, just make sure you have a good soldering iron and about 3,500 miles of solder.

[wullaby]

I had a DSP amp water got in and it died. I never took it out, mounted a 4 channel above it to run my 8 factory speakers, tapped into the remote wire and spliced into the speaker wires right there at the dsp amp. Changed the head unit and added another amp opposite side in the rear as well (removed the factory subwoofer box) and mounted amp there to drive my subs. Its' about a 6-8hr job. If your really good, maybe 4 hrs. I switch my subs from three 12" woofers to a single 10" apline depending if i need cargo space!

[nom3rcy]

I took mine out, sent the signal to a JL Audio HD900/5 running a set of DynAudio 240mk2s and a 12" Alumapro sub and haven't looked back