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  #11  
Old 11-13-2015, 10:22 AM
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Keep it! I would rather have repair bills than another note. I am going to try to squeeze 300,000 out of mine. I am at 89,9** right now.
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  #12  
Old 11-13-2015, 01:50 PM
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I definitely agree. Though 300,000 seems a little iffy to me. I'd think you'd be looking at pretty major repair bills after 200k.
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  #13  
Old 11-13-2015, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mpe50 View Post
I definitely agree. Though 300,000 seems a little iffy to me. I'd think you'd be looking at pretty major repair bills after 200k.
I am sure you are right about that. I am going to hold on for as long as I can or deem feasible.
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  #14  
Old 11-25-2015, 12:43 PM
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This is just an opinion based on having 6-7 bmw's over the last 15 years, but imo BMW quality has gone down hill. Making it worse, they are increasingly utilizing proprietary software that makes ownership for do it yourselfers more and more difficult. They are becoming a "lease it and walk away" brand to me.

Specifically, the e70 I've owned has been one of the worst in terms of stupid issues and quality problems. In reality, as a faithful BMW supporter for years, I may be coming to the end of my relationship with the brand.

Case in point, as one example, the e70 I have had catastrophic engine seal leaks at 55k miles, 5k after warranty, and 2 months or so. Suddenly Leaving puddles of oil everywhere. After 15 years of ownership, bmw na and the dealships position was " that's normal on the x5". As bizzare as the problem was, the response was worse in my opinion.

Among my family, we have a small fleet of x5's and x3's, so I get lots of data points. Examples, the pano roof on every one has failed. We've all had coolant overflow tanks crack. Door handle issues, radio and electronic gremlins, the list is way too long, and we all end up with the same problems. Imo, that's a clear sign of bad design and/or quality when the same problems are happening over and over. And many of these are components that have been around since cars were first made! I mean, multiple door handle failures? Hood failures with no safety release designed? Come on....

I hope you have great luck with yours and it lasts years to come. But unfortunately, my answer would have been its not worth keeping, problems are too likely on the horizon.
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  #15  
Old 11-25-2015, 01:50 PM
ard ard is offline
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^ Hard to disagree.

At some point the pain becomes too great. My M5 has 202k, and I fear sometime in the next 100k I too will have to say goodbye.

But jokes aside, your sentiments are correct. The real question though, is there another marque where these issues do not exist? While 'Japanese' seems the safe answer, these software and component issues exist there too.
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  #16  
Old 11-25-2015, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
^ Hard to disagree.

At some point the pain becomes too great. My M5 has 202k, and I fear sometime in the next 100k I too will have to say goodbye.

But jokes aside, your sentiments are correct. The real question though, is there another marque where these issues do not exist? While 'Japanese' seems the safe answer, these software and component issues exist there too.
It's sad for me to say, because I've really loved the brand for a long time and still do enjoy the driving experience BUT, I've owned other brands as well over the same timeframe and the extent of the problems do not exist in my experience. The BMW's have easily had the largest and most frequent issues. More frightening, they are all having the same repetitive issues with similar components across the families cars.

And no, in my experience, many of the other brands do not have the same level of proprietary software "overlord" control. I mean, I can't change the battery without registration ...... really? I mean, really? I can't change a broken radio amp without computer "registration"....really? I mean, really? Come on BMW. And the Indy mechanic I have used at times when I can't do something is even complaining, saying he can't work on models after a certain year because he can't justify the $80,000 BMW wants for the software.

Look, If you're comparing Mercedes or Audi, then yeah, maybe the same nonsense exists. But the Chevys and jeeps and toyotas I've dealt with are not remotely in the same category for proprietary nonsense. And frankly, don't seem to have remotely the same level of issues.

And for those who want to drink the BMW marketing cool-aid, and want to tell me how the ultimate driving experience has "sophisticated and special" parts that only BMW should touch, or may be so advanced it causes some degree of failure to be acceptable, Don't bother. I'm an engineer, I've had all my cars apart, and love to work on them. But it also means I know that under the roundel lies nothing but a car with typical "car" components. There's nothing special underneath your bodywork, but if it makes you feel good to think there is, go ahead. But it's nonsense. These failures are not acceptable and are indicative or poor design, manufacturing, and/or quality control. It's really that simple.
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  #17  
Old 11-28-2015, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clinkinfo View Post
It's sad for me to say, because I've really loved the brand for a long time and still do enjoy the driving experience BUT, I've owned other brands as well over the same timeframe and the extent of the problems do not exist in my experience. The BMW's have easily had the largest and most frequent issues. More frightening, they are all having the same repetitive issues with similar components across the families cars.

And no, in my experience, many of the other brands do not have the same level of proprietary software "overlord" control. I mean, I can't change the battery without registration ...... really? I mean, really? I can't change a broken radio amp without computer "registration"....really? I mean, really? Come on BMW. And the Indy mechanic I have used at times when I can't do something is even complaining, saying he can't work on models after a certain year because he can't justify the $80,000 BMW wants for the software.

Look, If you're comparing Mercedes or Audi, then yeah, maybe the same nonsense exists. But the Chevys and jeeps and toyotas I've dealt with are not remotely in the same category for proprietary nonsense. And frankly, don't seem to have remotely the same level of issues.

And for those who want to drink the BMW marketing cool-aid, and want to tell me how the ultimate driving experience has "sophisticated and special" parts that only BMW should touch, or may be so advanced it causes some degree of failure to be acceptable, Don't bother. I'm an engineer, I've had all my cars apart, and love to work on them. But it also means I know that under the roundel lies nothing but a car with typical "car" components. There's nothing special underneath your bodywork, but if it makes you feel good to think there is, go ahead. But it's nonsense. These failures are not acceptable and are indicative or poor design, manufacturing, and/or quality control. It's really that simple.
It's not that much better on the Japanese front. My 4Runner has had quite a few issues with it, the most major being the differential pinion bearing crush sleeve crushing a bit more and killing the pinion bearing. This is a common issues, and stems from Toyota saving a few bucks by using a thin crush sleeve instead of the solid pinion bearing spacer. The driver's seat only has a few motors that still work on it, things rattle all over it, and I have a rear axle creak that I just cannot track down.

These really aren't uncommon issues (in fact, the 4WD transfer cases seem so unreliable that's about all you see on 4Runner forums!), but the guys on Toyota forums have drank the Kool-Aid in a big way, and still proclaim their vehicles as super reliable. Nevermind that about half the production run of the 4th generation had MAJOR headgasket issues - like 40%+ failure rates. The guys that pay $3-4k for that fix still proclaim them as a reliable truck, and a headgasket repair at 90k miles is "normal maintenance." HAH!


I do think BMW under engineers some components for no real benefit, but I blame that on German engineers generally not being willing to admit when they really screw up. It's been a common theme in my engineering career. Thankfully most issues are "relatively" minor, but definitely annoying.
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  #18  
Old 11-28-2015, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DefSR View Post
It's not that much better on the Japanese front. My 4Runner has had quite a few issues with it, the most major being the differential pinion bearing crush sleeve crushing a bit more and killing the pinion bearing. This is a common issues, and stems from Toyota saving a few bucks by using a thin crush sleeve instead of the solid pinion bearing spacer. The driver's seat only has a few motors that still work on it, things rattle all over it, and I have a rear axle creak that I just cannot track down.

These really aren't uncommon issues (in fact, the 4WD transfer cases seem so unreliable that's about all you see on 4Runner forums!), but the guys on Toyota forums have drank the Kool-Aid in a big way, and still proclaim their vehicles as super reliable. Nevermind that about half the production run of the 4th generation had MAJOR headgasket issues - like 40%+ failure rates. The guys that pay $3-4k for that fix still proclaim them as a reliable truck, and a headgasket repair at 90k miles is "normal maintenance." HAH!


I do think BMW under engineers some components for no real benefit, but I blame that on German engineers generally not being willing to admit when they really screw up. It's been a common theme in my engineering career. Thankfully most issues are "relatively" minor, but definitely annoying.



But respectfully, that's one car model. I've had a cross section of BMW models that are all having issues, not just one model with one problem. And frankly, to say the problems are minor is just not accurate. Prior to the mid 2000's, the level of repliability was acceptable with all the BMW's I had. After that time, it's been a completely different ownership experience on all of them.

I had to do a complete engine rebuild at 55k miles on an x5 because multiple engine seals failed. BMW Claimed this was normal. Repair cost $5k at the dealer

The I drive system went on another at about 65k, car was completely unusable. Repair $3-4K

The pano roof broke on all x3's and the x5. The cost to repair each one at an INDY shop, $2k each and he only did it for me because he knows me, otherwise he tells people to go to the dealer for that one because it's a pain. Not to mention, that failure caused the amp to get flooded and short for the radio. Repair for that was $500-$1000 and it required the dealer to "register" the new amp, even though it was installed. You have to fix the issue, as the cars begin to flood if you don't in the rain.

One x5 had the complete 4x4 meltdown. Again, thousands in repairs, and it returned a second time.

Anyone remember the dreaded x3 transmission problems in 2007? The non-shifting transmission that was "operating accordingly design" when you spoke with BMW but was getting drivers close to killed trying to merge into traffic?

Recent hood failure took 15 hours to resolve, dealership wanted to charge for 1/2-1 day just to open it.

I'm sorry, the problems are NOT trivial, they are not annoyances, they are complete failures and expensive repairs.

Yes, cars break and have failures. But The small fleet of BMW's my family currently owns has broken more often then any other brand, with repairs that have cost multiples of other brands as well due to proprietary crap and software on the BMW side, or just plain nonsensical pricing on parts or labor.

In my opinion, BMW now has the koolaid drinkers if we think any of these is even remotely acceptable. Any there always does seem to be a few members that will jump to "the defense of the brand". Like I said, I did love the cars and the driving experience. My ownership experience has soured over the course of the last 5-8 years though, and my time owning any of their products is likely coming to an end.

These level of issues are not normal nor acceptable. Worse in my opinion, BMW's lack of ownership of the problems and their unwillingness to help customers when their design or quality is at issue is reprehensible. For example, we ALL know that pano roof is a defective design and has been for years. Flooded cars, damaged interiors and electronics. Yet, BMW still maintains there's no issue and will not help any customer with problems the moment your warranty has expired, even when 50% of the owners are having the same problems.

That's a company no longer deserving of my hard earned money. Certainly, everyone else is free to make their own priorities, but that shine has certainly dimmed for me.
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  #19  
Old 11-28-2015, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by clinkinfo View Post
But respectfully, that's one car model. I've had a cross section of BMW models that are all having issues, not just one model with one problem. And frankly, to say the problems are minor is just not accurate. Prior to the mid 2000's, the level of repliability was acceptable with all the BMW's I had. After that time, it's been a completely different ownership experience on all of them.

I had to do a complete engine rebuild at 55k miles on an x5 because multiple engine seals failed. BMW Claimed this was normal. Repair cost $5k at the dealer

The I drive system went on another at about 65k, car was completely unusable. Repair $3-4K

The pano roof broke on all x3's and the x5. The cost to repair each one at an INDY shop, $2k each and he only did it for me because he knows me, otherwise he tells people to go to the dealer for that one because it's a pain. Not to mention, that failure caused the amp to get flooded and short for the radio. Repair for that was $500-$1000 and it required the dealer to "register" the new amp, even though it was installed. You have to fix the issue, as the cars begin to flood if you don't in the rain.

One x5 had the complete 4x4 meltdown. Again, thousands in repairs, and it returned a second time.

Anyone remember the dreaded x3 transmission problems in 2007? The non-shifting transmission that was "operating accordingly design" when you spoke with BMW but was getting drivers close to killed trying to merge into traffic?

Recent hood failure took 15 hours to resolve, dealership wanted to charge for 1/2-1 day just to open it.

I'm sorry, the problems are NOT trivial, they are not annoyances, they are complete failures and expensive repairs.

Yes, cars break and have failures. But The small fleet of BMW's my family currently owns has broken more often then any other brand, with repairs that have cost multiples of other brands as well due to proprietary crap and software on the BMW side, or just plain nonsensical pricing on parts or labor.

In my opinion, BMW now has the koolaid drinkers if we think any of these is even remotely acceptable. Any there always does seem to be a few members that will jump to "the defense of the brand". Like I said, I did love the cars and the driving experience. My ownership experience has soured over the course of the last 5-8 years though, and my time owning any of their products is likely coming to an end.

These level of issues are not normal nor acceptable. Worse in my opinion, BMW's lack of ownership of the problems and their unwillingness to help customers when their design or quality is at issue is reprehensible. For example, we ALL know that pano roof is a defective design and has been for years. Flooded cars, damaged interiors and electronics. Yet, BMW still maintains there's no issue and will not help any customer with problems the moment your warranty has expired, even when 50% of the owners are having the same problems.

That's a company no longer deserving of my hard earned money. Certainly, everyone else is free to make their own priorities, but that shine has certainly dimmed for me.
My point is that all car makers are designing to a price point, and making decisions that are detrimental to the 2nd and 3rd owners.

BMW is not unique in this respect. And while I agree BMW does tend to go a little weak on some components that would cost mere pennies to beef up (door handles, sunroofs etc.), again, it's not unique to them.

It sounds like you've got a bit of sour grapes on your BMW ownership experience. Don't worry, it happens to all of us. I've taken a 5 year break on owning BMWs as a result (spent about $2.5k in PARTS just keeping an '03 540i going for a year, threw in the towel after that). But no sense in acting like you've discovered something magical.

If you don't like the upkeep, it makes a strong case for a good aftermarket warranty, as I believe they will usually pay themselves back on these vehicles over 4+ years. Otherwise, if you're paying BMW, or even indy prices, you'll likely cry uncle quickly due to the psychological car value vs. repair value difference.
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  #20  
Old 12-05-2015, 05:03 PM
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I've pretty much resigned myself to a vary similar line of thinking. I currently own two BMWs in my garage (an old E46, and a newer (but still old) E70), and the E46 is not running due to coolant leaks. I have seriously sunk many hundreds of dollars into the cooling system parts on that thing (replacing everything to include the radiator) and every few thousand miles I find a new leak somewhere in the system. The car has a crapton of miles on it (approaching 200K) but I have gotten that many miles out of domestic cars, and never had any work to this extent performed on them. I mean, only BMW seems to have cars that owners recommend doing complete cooling system overhauls every 60,000 miles. That's ludicrous, and points to some serious engineering shortcomings on the designer's end. I almost don't even want to repair it, because I'm daily driving a domestic diesel truck (Ford) and have had no problems with it other than a sticky EGR valve that I repaired for a $10 gasket and o-ring kit.

I am a pretty competent garage mechanic with a hefty collection of specific tools for working on BMWs. But once a month, it seems, my wife calls/texts me about some new "noise" that her car makes, or some new glitch, or a weird driveability concern that creeps up. I have no issue with repairing my cars, since I enjoy that sort of thing, but the monthly expense of a new belt or pulley or alternator or leaking coolant hose or whatever gets tiresome. And every month, it seems, I'm dismantling the front of the car to get at something broken. I mean, every other flippin' car that I've owned, replacing a belt might mean pulling out an intake hose or removing a fan shroud and 20 total minutes of work. But on my 4.8? It involves removing the entire air intake system from the TB out, pulling the forward upper brace, and removing the cooling fan. All of this takes quite a long time to accomplish (by comparison), and I might be done in an hour or two. And now? I seem to be dealing with iDrive issues. God knows how much money that'll cost me. And I haven't even gotten into problems with valve seats or the high-dollar repairs that owning a 4.8 will get me.

I like getting my hands dirty, but the frustration level of working on these high-performance, poorly-engineered beasts (poorly-engineered, in that they don't care to build durable components) makes me never want to have one that is out of warranty. Buy it (or lease it), then trade it in when the warranty expires, and maybe some other poor schlub will buy it because the roundel sure does make them look cool.
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