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  #1  
Old 09-21-2005, 09:32 PM
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TJJ is a stud (or how to get fullrange preouts from DSP audio)

Confirmed the following today on a 2005 X5 4.8 is with DSP (thanks and shout out to TJJ for sharing the info assertively!)

(NOTE: This also tells non-DSP folks how I would do an amp upgrade in their cars : )


1) If the tuner in the rear is unplugged, and the HU is unplugged, and then the DSP amp is unplugged, and then the tuner is plugged back in, the system sees the DSP amp is gone, and the DSP function in the menu is ghosted, and then disappears completely.

You lose your 7-band EQ and your (BS) room and echo settings - BUT your steering wheel controls still work.

2) The preout from the tuner to the DSP amp is 10V peak to peak testing with a 0dB reference CD track with a 1KhZ sine wave.

3) The tuner in the rear has R preout pins, unstuffed. We did not stuff them but did confirm that they work with the fader.

4) The output is flat as a pancake (almost - there is a fairly standard auto-loudness bump/tilt in the bass at the lowest volumes, which decreases as volume increases until you get to about 1/2 of full volume. Tested this with a 1/3 octave RTA.

5) We tried various ways to interface with this balanced signal with DC offset:

- Soundgate LOCPREA. This one had tons of volume and very little noise, and it had no noise with the gains turned down. With a lot of gain restructuring we might have gotten ALL the noise out (with the EQ/line driver and the amps, we have a lot of input and output level settings to tweak). But the LOCPREA has transformers in it, and they tend to pick up noise in the X5 out of the air (EMI). This also had a slight peak at 80 and a slight rolloff below 50 on the RTA on its outputs.

- Soundgate LOC4.2. This was one that SG thought would rock, but it had more noise than the PREA. It required a ground loop isolator on the output (SG ISO2) to filter the DC content of the signal. However, the GLI has transformers too, and this was also noisy when we used the GLI, just less so. SG says that we should have tapped it right at the output of the tuner module under the load floor, but I couldnt see a neat way to do that. Too bad - it was flat on the RTA.

- Soundgate LOCB.2. Horrid, don't even bother, SG doesn't recommend it anyway. Didn't bother with the RTA.

- Homebrew. We took a set of RCA cables, hacked the ends off, tapped them straight into the wires at the DSP amp, and plugged them into a GLI to take out the noise. We tried the SG ISO2, which sounded great and had NO noise until we stuffed it into the back of the changer area where it had to go. Then we had noise. We ended up using a Stinger GLI in a metal case, but what I really want for this car is a Jensen ISO-MAX (http://www.jensen-transformers.com/ci2rr.html ). These would reject EMI better than any others.

RTA'd marvelously as described above.

I measured the DC content of the signal and it was about 0.8V at max volume with the sine wave test signal. I verified with others that this should be fine as an amount of DC offset.

6) I also listened to the system. Brief recap: Dynaudio System 240 GT F and R, with custom-made crossovers for the front at 2500 Hz, and a DLS 10" in a fiberglass box. Genesis 75 x 2 amps F and R and a 300W mono amp for the bass.

First off, more output, so more resolution on the volume control.

Second, clearer, more detailed highs, with more sensation of depth.

Finally, more detail and texture to the bass, with some bass notes very clearly sounding different than they did before. Less thud, more texture. It was as if we'd installed a high-end aftermarket CD player - that's how striking the change was. (The customer had many of the same CDs we'd used to tune the system originally).

Overall, the system seemed to be more transparent. I have to ascribe this to eliminating the distortion in the DSP amp output.

He was unhappy that we had removed his 7-band EQ - but he agreed that it was definitely better sounding. He's going to listen to it for a week and come back for some more work (we are sound damping the doors to make the stereo quieter outside the car).

So how I would do any DSP car now is get a set of 1M to 2F "Y" adapters, hack the male ends off, and wire the female ends into the preout wires at the DSP amp. Then I'd plug in the best GLI I could get, and voila - RCA preouts.

If you're doing this yourself, it really pays to find a sine wave test disc and get a voltmeter. It's easy to find sine wave wires with a voltmeter set to AC.

NOTE: SG theorizes that this does not work with X5s with DSP with the digital cable present. I don't give them a lot of credence because they didn't know this worked until I told them, but this *might* not work on pre-2003 X5 DSP systems. Or it might.
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  #2  
Old 09-21-2005, 09:43 PM
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A note on balanced outputs:

Regular RCA cables carry single-ended outputs. These have the outer ring at chassis ground and the (+) center conductor carries the signal.

Balanced lines (like in an XLR connector) work differently. There is a (+) wire, a (-) wire, and a reference ground wire. The signal on the (+) wire is the same as on the (-) wire, but UPSIDE DOWN.

At the other end of a FULLY balanced signal chain, one signal is inverted and then the two are summed together. If any noise is picked up on the cable, inverting the signal puts the signals back inphase, but now makes the noise on one the exact opposite of the noise on the other. If you sum them together, the noises cancel each other out.

So the BMW is balanced (as are many stereo systems) with a twist: a LOT of DC content to the signal. Basically, the signals vary in voltage, but never cross the 0V line, so they're not true AC. We don't care about that if it didn'teventually toast your amp.

So many amps take "balanced inputs". Yes, they do, but they don't do the cancellation thing - they just float the signal ground so you can run these signals straight in. They DON'T use the (-) side of the signal.

So the important thing when working with the BMW preout is to get the DC out and get a signal your amp can use. You can do this with an LOC that has transformers in it, or with a Ground Loop Isolator (they have transformers too). Or you can use a shunt capacitor to ground (like xtant used to tell people to do with BMWs). I've done all of those. Many amps can't take a balanced input, so the LOC can give them a signal that doesn't freak them out.

Hope this helped somewhat...
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Old 09-22-2005, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el_duderino
NOTE: SG theorizes that this does not work with X5s with DSP with the digital cable present. I don't give them a lot of credence because they didn't know this worked until I told them, but this *might* not work on pre-2003 X5 DSP systems. Or it might.
Nice to hear it worked after all For pre-2003 models, with only DSP-cable coming from the cd-changer, you just need to add analog audio cable between the CD and radio, you can get it from your BMW parts dealer.
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Old 09-22-2005, 02:48 PM
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Reader's Digest Condensed version (by request):

If you have DSP, you can eliminate the DSP and get nice preamp outputs from your X5 OEM head unit to your aftermarket amp.
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Old 09-22-2005, 02:58 PM
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beautiful write-up!
what does this do for stock wiring?
say i wanted to keep the stock speakers and wiring, but wanted only to add an amp for subs; would this work?
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Old 09-22-2005, 05:37 PM
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I don't see that it would... you'd be better off using the sub-only speaker-level outputs of the amp.

When the amp is present the signal from the tuner to the amp stays constant and doesn't change with volume. You don't want your sub to do that.
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Old 09-23-2005, 01:29 AM
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removing dsp amp

exactly how many wires is there coming off the dsp amp that you have to connect to the hacked rca wires.

In other words how many channels do you have coming out the dsp amp that you will have to connect to the aftermarket amps or eq.

el duderino, if you are using a eq like say the "PG ti deq" would it connect after the GLI and before the aftermarket amps?.
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Old 09-23-2005, 08:50 AM
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el duderino - ok. so, according to ur write-up, does this procedure eliminate the DSP Amp? and so by eliminating the DSP Amp, one would then need to use after-market amps all around? if this is the case, would one be able to use the factory speaker wiring to accomplish this or would one need to run new wires to each speaker? i'm still a little confused.

basically, what i am hoping to accomplish in the future (in order of preference) is :

1. add a little more bass. the dlp sub just doesn't cut it, esp. coming out of something w/ 4 - 8" JL Audio's. would it be easier to just tap into the current sub wiring for this?

2. eventually replace the stock mids and highs.
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Old 09-23-2005, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broknlgs24
el duderino - ok. so, according to ur write-up, does this procedure eliminate the DSP Amp? .
Yes, entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by broknlgs24
and so by eliminating the DSP Amp, one would then need to use after-market amps all around?
Yes, exactly, this is the purpose of doing this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by broknlgs24
if this is the case, would one be able to use the factory speaker wiring to accomplish this or would one need to run new wires to each speaker? .
BMW speaker wiring is good quality and we frequently use it without any replacement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by broknlgs24

basically, what i am hoping to accomplish in the future (in order of preference) is :

1. add a little more bass. the dlp sub just doesn't cut it, esp. coming out of something w/ 4 - 8" JL Audio's. would it be easier to just tap into the current sub wiring for this?
If that's all you're doing for now, yes, absolutely. Use a Soundgate LOCHVA. Don't need an LC6 for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by broknlgs24
2. eventually replace the stock mids and highs.
OK, when you do that, IMO you really should replace the DSP amp too. As my other article/post describes,. the DSP amp is a poor match for ANY aftermarket speakers.

When you do that, you will end up eliminating the DSP amp and rewiring your sub amp for a different source for signal anyway.

Hope that helps.
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Old 09-23-2005, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
exactly how many wires is there coming off the dsp amp that you have to connect to the hacked rca wires.

In other words how many channels do you have coming out the dsp amp that you will have to connect to the aftermarket amps or eq.

el duderino, if you are using a eq like say the "PG ti deq" would it connect after the GLI and before the aftermarket amps?.
Sorry, guys, I did not attempt to create a DIY post because it was my understanding that there were already amp wirign diagrams all over this forum for doing wiring, so I didn't really attempt to document any of this. The wires were standard BMW colors if that helps any (so the diagrams should match). If you don't have the wiring diagram, I'd do a one-day sub to the bmwtechinfo site and print the wiring diagrams.

Yes, the EQ goes before your amps, precisely. But FYI, the purpose of the EQ has now changed. (sorry!)

Before you were using it to correct the OEM curve. Now you HAVe no OEM curve. It's flat as a pancake. So you will now use it, IF you still use it, to EQ your sound system.

Sorry I didn't figure this out two weeks before, man (or in my own case, two months!)
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